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shah
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Posted: Thursday May 22nd, 2008 05:37 am |
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Hi, I am using current sensors (connected to input using Digital signal) to update the aircond status to C-Bus UCM (comfort counter logic). From my understanding, the update will only take place when there is a change of hi/lo level , then only it will be transmitted to C-Bus UCM. The problem is there are times when although comfort input is HIGH but somehow Cbus fails to update it. This problem is pretty intermittent.
My question is, what is the best way so that I could program comfort to check the inputs and send to CBus UCM maybe every half an hour.
Regards
Shah
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hendy
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Posted: Thursday May 22nd, 2008 08:25 am |
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You can program a response to check inputs and send to Cbus using Hourly Response under Events > Miscellaneous Events.
Under what circumstances this intermittent problem occurs?
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shah
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Posted: Thursday May 22nd, 2008 08:49 am |
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Hi.
Which logic should I use to check for the input state? FYI, I never use that response before. Normally i use the zone ON and OFF response and this seems not good enough if we have a third party monitoring panel.. The problem doesnt occur on a specific occasion and time. There were a number of switches that control the airconds and out of a sudden we came across maybe one or two airconds dont show the correct status. And sometimes in a week it worked just fine. Hopefully by adding this, it will sync better with the equipment state. ANd maybe I am going to add a timer in the hourly response so it will execute a couple of times in one hour.
Anyway thanks.
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Ingo
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Posted: Thursday May 22nd, 2008 12:55 pm |
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I've seen this numerous times. My implementation updates CBus on the state of every zone in the house, this I then display on HomeGate. After several long hours I found that diferent firmware versions on the main boards give different results. My workaround to 'sync' the status of all zones is to do a system reset, this forces Minder Pro to send updates for all the Active zones. On a later firmware, it tries to update ALL the zones - which is good, but then it misses a few (I have 64). My only option was to go back to old firmware and live with the limitations.
I don't know of a graceful way to have Minder/Comfort send initial zone updates to CBUS. The documentation says you can but I never got it working. If your aircon is switched Off then On the status will probably be right but then it's too late, you need the initial state.
Last edited on Thursday May 22nd, 2008 01:06 pm by Ingo
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shah
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Posted: Friday May 23rd, 2008 03:37 am |
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System reset (to the main board or cbus ucm?)...Correct me if I am wrong but does that mean everytime it is executed, the keypad will prompt "security off"? I did think of that at one point but then Ive got a feeling this is not the right way of solving this issue. I know that on the initial state of reset, minderpro will scan the inputs and broadcast this state.
Rgds
Shah
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Ingo
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Posted: Friday May 23rd, 2008 04:29 am |
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| On the main board. I accidentally got to this when I was working in Configurator and did a system reset, suddenly all the alarm states were updated to the correct state. The only drawback is that if you reset the main board while it is in an armed state, these "new" zone states will be interpreted as a change and the alarm will sound. I initially got that also working (to reset while armed) on my old firmware but after playing/upgrading/downgrading that also stopped to work. My response currently only does a system reset if the panel is in an unarmed state.
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shah
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Posted: Friday May 23rd, 2008 05:22 am |
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Hmm..If we do a reset to the CBus UCM, will it broadcast the security application state to Cbus network? Like armed, disarmed and alarm state? The manual states that only C-Bus lighting group addresses will be retrieved (ON/OFF).
And Chiu, if this is possible, will it be troublesome to add a software reset command to CBUS UCM in Comfigurator?
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Ingo
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Posted: Friday May 23rd, 2008 06:59 am |
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Maybe, try and press the reset button on the CBus UCM. I doubt if it will send updates, I checked this a long time ago and I seem to recall that the mainboard is responsible for the status updates. What you need is a way to have the mainboard update CBus with the zone states. Like a Software 'Status Request'
In the CBUSMAN there is a method to get a simple thing like 'Arm Status' back to CBus - it's written for C-Touch but I can't see why it wouldn't work for HomeGate. I tried it again last night and it just doesn't work. Look at page 29 'Arm Status'
I get all sorts of Security Aplication messages back in the HomeGate log so comms do happen but the state doesn't change on the CBus Icon. Very frustrating !!!
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shah
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Posted: Friday May 23rd, 2008 07:35 am |
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It happened to me too. Ive programmed a few days ago for the application 208 ($D0) group $80 to reflect the armed/disarmed state. It does not work on my monitoring panel too.. hmm.
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admin
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Posted: Monday May 26th, 2008 01:32 pm |
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We will update you on the correct operation in updating the zones and alarm conditions after our verification
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Ingo
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Posted: Monday Jun 2nd, 2008 11:55 am |
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Hi Chiu,
Any news on our issue above? Finding a way to "ask" for a zone status update is very important. I display all zone states on CBus and if it goes out of sync I cannot trust it anymore. I am sure Shah can confirm this.
Thanks,
Ingo
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slychiu
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Posted: Monday Jun 2nd, 2008 02:36 pm |
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The security application state is always sent to C-Bus when the change occurs, eg zone open, close, arm disarm, alarm etc
At Reset, Comfort will remaiin in Security Off or arm depending on the last state before it was reset so it should send these information to C-Bus
At reset, all open zones are reported to C-Bus
There are Security Application messages called Status Request1 and Status Request 2 from C-Bus to obtain the status of the zones. I dont know if any Cbus device or software has implemented this message througj, nut it works in Comfort
When the UCM/CBUS is reset, it gets the current state of all Cbus group addresses into the counters. You do not need to change the state of each group address to update it in Comfort
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Ingo
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Posted: Monday Jun 2nd, 2008 05:32 pm |
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slychiu wrote: 1. The security application state is always sent to C-Bus when the change occurs, eg zone open, close, arm disarm, alarm etc 2. At Reset, Comfort will remaiin in Security Off or arm depending on the last state before it was reset so it should send these information to C-Bus 3. At reset, all open zones are reported to C-Bus 4.There are Security Application messages called Status Request1 and Status Request 2 from C-Bus to obtain the status of the zones. I dont know if any Cbus device or software has implemented this message througj, nut it works in Comfort
When the UCM/CBUS is reset, it gets the current state of all Cbus group addresses into the counters. You do not need to change the state of each group address to update it in Comfort
I numbered the statements above to clarify my answers:
1. Correct, changes are seen on the CBus side as they happen on Comfort.
2. Correct and verified using the 'system reset' command.
3. Correct, but here is where the problem comes in. With UCM/Cbus 5.75 if you reset the system the open zone states are reported to CBus. With UCM/CBus 5.154 if you reset the system the open zone states are reported to CBus BUT Comfort also sees the open zones as new triggers and the alarm sounds.
Can you please verify my findings. I am running Comfort II Ultra/Minder Pro with 64 zones and firmware 5.054.
As for the Status Request 1 & 2 Messages, please send me the application and group addresses so I can test them. The documentation on these are a bit confusing.
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slychiu
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Posted: Tuesday Jun 3rd, 2008 02:37 am |
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When you reset Comfort, any open 24 Hour zones like Panic and Tamper will cause an alarm in Comfort. It is a security issue and does not have anything to do with the UCM/CBUS version that you use. You would not be able to clear an alarm caused by a 24 hour zone by simply resetting the system
The Status Request messages are decsribed in the UCM/CBus manual
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Ingo
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Posted: Tuesday Jun 3rd, 2008 04:34 am |
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The open zones are usually windows which are set to DoorWindow[1]. Also with the older UCM/Cbus it doesn't cause an alarm but with the new one it does.
Status Message Requests in the UCM doesn't work as does the procedure to get a Panic Alarm sent from CBus to Comfort and the armed/disarmed state. See both Shah and my own posts regarding this previously.
It happened to me too. Ive programmed a few days ago for the application 208 ($D0) group $80 to reflect the armed/disarmed state. It does not work on my monitoring panel too.. hmm. In the CBUSMAN there is a method to get a simple thing like 'Arm Status' back to CBus - it's written for C-Touch but I can't see why it wouldn't work for HomeGate. I tried it again last night and it just doesn't work. Look at page 29 'Arm Status'
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slychiu
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Posted: Tuesday Jun 3rd, 2008 05:06 am |
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Zones set as Door/window do not cause alarms on Comfort if the system is not armed, regardless of which version or firmware or UCM
Can you describe exactly what you are seeing so we can understand what the problem is . What alarms are you referring to, alarms on Comfort?
The armed/disarmed status group address 80 hex is sent by the UCM/CBUS whenever the system is armed or disarmed. It is not a response to a query. This most certainly works because the KT01 and monochrome CTouch uses these messages to update the armed status display I dont know what Shah means by not working for his "monitoring panel"
It may be how he has defined the application and group addresses
Similarly the Panic Alarm message from Cbus to Comfort definately works. this is Group address A4 in the security application. The KT01 and regular monochrome touchscreen uses this to trigger a Panic alarm on Comfort.
The Status Request messages that I referred to in the previous post are A0 and A1 which ask Comfort for the current status of al zones in the system, it is not related to the armed state 80hex
Please check the configuration of the Cbus and security appliactions with reference to the UCM/CBus manual
regards
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Ingo
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Posted: Tuesday Jun 3rd, 2008 09:32 am |
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When Comfort is armed, and I do a System Reset, the old UCM reports all the open zones to CBus, it announces EG "Day Mode", gives the usual few beeps and then goes back to Armed state - no mess, no fuss.
When I do the exact same with the newer CBus UCM, everything happens exactly as above except that the Siren sounds - somewhat annoying if you reset the system while armed. While the siren sounds, the keypad cycles through the open zones. I am sure the event log will show that these are the cause of the alarm.
I don't understand why the CBus UCM has anything to do with the above but it happens. Let me try one more thing tonight, I will disconnect the CBus UCM from the CBus side to see what happens.
As for the Status Messages, I tried to do a Status Request (A0 and A1) as per the cbusman as well as the Panic alarm. It just doesn't work for some reason. Is there a way for me to see the messages between Cbus and Comfort? I need to see if the messages are send and if they are in the right format. I use HomeGate 3.90 which I also configured to show the zone states (Application 1) and that work 100%
To get the Panic to work, from CBus to Comfort, I had to do a workaround, I set a group in CBus so a Counter can be set in Comfort, the counter has a response which in turn activates the Panic mode.
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Ingo
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Posted: Tuesday Jun 3rd, 2008 07:09 pm |
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Ok, this is what I found - the strangest thing ever...
Firstly I setup the old UCM and got a baseline. Arm the system to Day Mode, Reset using Comfigurator and then download the event log. The system did a reset, announced the zones and didn't give an intruder alert - great, as expected.
Secondly I setup the new ucm, downloaded the code again, armed to Day Mode and reset the system. This time Comfort gave an Intruder alert. With this test the CBus cable was connected to the CBus UCM. See below:
06/03 20:30 Bypass Zone - Zone #MainBathWindow (51)
06/03 20:30 Bypass Zone - Zone #UpstairsBathWin1 (54)
06/03 20:30 Bypass Zone - Zone #UpstairsBathWin2 (55)
06/03 20:30 Sign in - User #, Keypad
06/03 20:30 Mode Change #Day Mode
06/03 20:31 Reset
06/03 20:31 Sign in - User #, System Response
06/03 20:31 Mode Change #Day Mode
06/03 20:31 Alarm Type #Intruder (1)
06/03 20:31 Zone Activation #MainBathWindow (51)
06/03 20:31 Alarm Type #Intruder (1)
06/03 20:31 Zone Activation #UpstairsBathWin1 (54)
06/03 20:31 Alarm Type #Intruder (1)
06/03 20:31 Zone Activation #UpstairsBathWin2 (55)
06/03 20:32 Alarm Type #AlarmAbort (20)
06/03 20:32 Sign in - User #, 1
06/03 20:32 Mode Change #Security Off
I then disconnected the CBus wires from the CBus UCM but still kept it on the system. This time, the system acted correctly and didn't give an Intruder Alert when reset. See below:
06/03 19:57 Bypass Zone - Zone #MainBathWindow (51)
06/03 19:57 Bypass Zone - Zone #UpstairsBathWin1 (54)
06/03 19:57 Bypass Zone - Zone #UpstairsBathWin2 (55)
06/03 19:57 Sign in - User #, Keypad
06/03 19:57 Mode Change #Day Mode
06/03 19:59 Reset
06/03 19:59 Bypass Zone - Zone #MainBathWindow (51)
06/03 19:59 Bypass Zone - Zone #UpstairsBathWin1 (54)
06/03 19:59 Bypass Zone - Zone #UpstairsBathWin2 (55)
06/03 19:59 Sign in - User #, System Response
06/03 19:59 Mode Change #Day Mode
06/03 20:00 UnBypass Zone - Zone #MainBathWindow (51)
06/03 20:00 UnBypass Zone - Zone #UpstairsBathWin1 (54)
06/03 20:00 UnBypass Zone - Zone #UpstairsBathWin2 (55)
06/03 20:00 Sign in - User #, 1
06/03 20:00 Mode Change #Security Off
My thinking was that something on HomeGate is interfering with Comfort so I shut both HomeGate and CGate down. I did the test and it is exactly like the second test. An Intruder Alert... Below is the HomeGate log with CGate messages, maybe it will ring a bell somewhere:
This is where the system is armed in Day Mode.
2008/06/03 20:42:34 C-Gate : Rx "# security arm_not_ready //MIDSTRM/254/208/51 #sourceunit=18 OID="
2008/06/03 20:42:35 C-Gate : Rx "# security arm_not_ready //MIDSTRM/254/208/54 #sourceunit=18 OID="
2008/06/03 20:42:36 C-Gate : Rx "# security zone_isolated //MIDSTRM/254/208/51 #sourceunit=18 OID="
2008/06/03 20:42:37 C-Gate : Rx "# security zone_isolated //MIDSTRM/254/208/54 #sourceunit=18 OID="
2008/06/03 20:42:37 C-Gate : Rx "# security zone_isolated //MIDSTRM/254/208/55 #sourceunit=18 OID="
2008/06/03 20:42:40 C-Gate : Rx "# security arm_ready //MIDSTRM/254/208 #sourceunit=18 OID=5289cc60-5720-102a-9496-de82826b2a80"
2008/06/03 20:42:40 C-Gate : Rx "# security exit_delay_started //MIDSTRM/254/208 #sourceunit=18 OID=5289cc60-5720-102a-9496-de82826b2a80"
2008/06/03 20:42:44 C-Gate : Rx "# security system_arm //MIDSTRM/254/208 3 #sourceunit=18 OID=5289cc60-5720-102a-9496-de82826b2a80"
2008/06/03 20:43:05 C-Gate : Rx "# security exit_delay_started //MIDSTRM/254/208 #sourceunit=18 OID=5289cc60-5720-102a-9496-de82826b2a80"
2008/06/03 20:43:08 C-Gate : Rx "# security system_arm //MIDSTRM/254/208 3 #sourceunit=18 OID=5289cc60-5720-102a-9496-de82826b2a80"
Here is where I reset the system via Comfigurator and enter my user code to disarm.
2008/06/03 20:43:11 C-Gate : Rx "# security zone_unsealed //MIDSTRM/254/208/51 #sourceunit=18 OID="
2008/06/03 20:43:11 C-Gate : Rx "application ramp //MIDSTRM/254/1/51 255 4 #sourceunit=18 OID=32045ac0-b47f-102a-aeba-ae1ac8e8dddf"
2008/06/03 20:43:11 C-Bus Rx : Ramp Security(1), Group 51 - Main Bathroom Window On over 4s
2008/06/03 20:43:11 C-Gate : Rx "# security alarm_on //MIDSTRM/254/208 #sourceunit=18 OID=5289cc60-5720-102a-9496-de82826b2a80"
2008/06/03 20:43:13 C-Gate : Rx "# security zone_unsealed //MIDSTRM/254/208/54 #sourceunit=18 OID="
2008/06/03 20:43:13 C-Gate : Rx "application ramp //MIDSTRM/254/1/54 255 4 #sourceunit=18 OID=eb9cea70-b94c-102a-9508-cad1248fb744"
2008/06/03 20:43:13 C-Bus Rx : Ramp Security(1), Group 54 - Kids Bathroom Win 1 On over 4s
2008/06/03 20:43:13 C-Gate : Rx "# security alarm_on //MIDSTRM/254/208 #sourceunit=18 OID=5289cc60-5720-102a-9496-de82826b2a80"
2008/06/03 20:43:15 C-Gate : Rx "# security zone_unsealed //MIDSTRM/254/208/55 #sourceunit=18 OID="
2008/06/03 20:43:15 C-Gate : Rx "application ramp //MIDSTRM/254/1/55 255 4 #sourceunit=18 OID=03be6fc0-b94d-102a-9509-cad1248fb744"
2008/06/03 20:43:15 C-Bus Rx : Ramp Security(1), Group 55 - Kids Bathroom Win 2 On over 4s
2008/06/03 20:43:15 C-Gate : Rx "# security alarm_on //MIDSTRM/254/208 #sourceunit=18 OID=5289cc60-5720-102a-9496-de82826b2a80"
2008/06/03 20:43:31 C-Gate : Rx "# security alarm_off //MIDSTRM/254/208 #sourceunit=18 OID=5289cc60-5720-102a-9496-de82826b2a80"
2008/06/03 20:43:32 C-Gate : Rx "# security system_arm //MIDSTRM/254/208 0 #sourceunit=18 OID=5289cc60-5720-102a-9496-de82826b2a80"
Surely now you can see that there is something causing this. Doesn't it warrant a lab setup to simulate there by you guys? Just humor me... With this setup I cannot sell it to a client that wants this level of integration.
If you need more information feel free to PM me and I will give you all the info you require.
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slychiu
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Posted: Wednesday Jun 4th, 2008 01:32 am |
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Just as I suspected, The reason for this is to do with polling of the modules by Comfort
When the system is reset, it will auto-arm to the same mode and bypass all open zones. At reset many things are happening, with the slaves getting their zone information and reporting the state of their zones
If the zones from the slaves are reported open before the system arms, they are bypassed. When Cbus is in the network there is additional reporting which delays the reporting of the slave zones, until after the system has armed. When zones are open after the system has armed it causes Intruder Alarm. In your case these zones are on the last Slave. You can trace this in the event log
You have a very short Night Entry Delay which results in the system arming very fast for auto-arming. Increase the Night Entry Delay to 5 or 10 seconds to prevent this
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Ingo
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Posted: Wednesday Jun 4th, 2008 03:51 pm |
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I changed the Night Exit Delay from the default 5s to 10s. This fixed the System Reset issue, thanks.
As for the Panic and Arm status messages, I think I'll try the CBus forum again to see if there aren't any answers. I can see the Application 208 messages on CGate but my CBus status is not updated with the state. Maybe it's only designed for the Touch Panels and not HomeGate. The last resort is to use some logic to update a counter with values - like an array.
Just as a matter of interest, this is what I get when trying to set the Panic alarm from CBus.
6/4/2008 5:54:39 PM C-Bus Tx : Set Security(208), Group 164 (A4) - Activate Alarm on (User Click)
6/4/2008 5:54:39 PM C-Gate : Tx "[6550]on 254/208/164"
6/4/2008 5:54:39 PM C-Gate : Rx "[6550] 401 Bad object or device ID: 254/208/164 (Invalid zone address)"
The above is with the CBus UCM disconnected so it must be something else returning this error.
Last edited on Wednesday Jun 4th, 2008 04:02 pm by Ingo
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