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ZWave-2 acting as sensor relay
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 Posted: Monday Nov 17th, 2014 06:47 pm
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Vangelis
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I am running an HA solution that uses an Aeon Labs ZWave stick to receive and transmit ZWave cmds.

I was wondering if the Comfort ZWave-2 UCM can act as a sensor relay, say for instance a PIR that is hardwired into Comfort is tripped - Can I, via the ZWave-2 UCM, send out a ZWave cmd that my HA solution receives, and can use as a Trigger for instance?

Vangelis



 Posted: Tuesday Nov 18th, 2014 09:06 am
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slychiu
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Yes You can send zwave commands to any zwave module when a zone is activated
Use the Zone Response for the PIR zone to send your Zwave command or commands to the desired module, eg to turn on lights



 Posted: Sunday Jan 25th, 2015 05:30 pm
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Vangelis
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OK - So trying to set this up and this is what I have currently...

Comfort Ultra II ver 7.065
UCM 2 ZWave ver 7.061

I am trying to have Comfort send a ZWave signal to my HA (Indigo) when a hardwired sensor (PIR) is triggered.

ZWave Mapping is as follows ....

Device-ID Description
1 Static_Controller - PC_Controller (Light Grey)
2 Routing_Slave - Routing_Sensor_Binary (Black)
3 Routing_Slave - Routing_Sensor_Binary (Black)
6 Static_Controller - Static_Controller (Blue)
7 Slave - Switch_Multilevel (Green)

When I sync'd my ZStick S2 with Comfort it picked up Devices 1,2 and 3. I then created a Virtual Node and I think it created Device 7?

With my ZStick S2 plugged into my HA (Indigo) I can see 006 - Static_Controller

All looks good so far, so I then try and setup a Response in Comfort as above in this post...

So under my Lounge PIR I create an On Response of

Zwave BasicSetCommand UCM02 1 0 255 (where on is level 255). I then do the same for an Off Response and set off level 0

I then have a look at the ZWave Mapping Properties for Device-ID 6....

Description : Static_Controller - Static_Controller
Node Type - Basic
Listening - Yes

Now I was under the impression that if Device-ID was going to send a Zwave signal when Lounge PIR tripped and generated On Response, it would not be set to Listen???

I confirmed this with the other Binary Sensors and they are set Listen - No

So I guess my question is, what am I doing wrong here?? (btw i am writing to EEPROM as I go)

Vangelis



 Posted: Monday Jan 26th, 2015 05:28 am
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leonchue
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Vangelis wrote:
Now I was under the impression that if Device-ID was going to send a Zwave signal when Lounge PIR tripped and generated On Response, it would not be set to Listen???

Quoted from UCM/Zwave manual page 18. 

"Listening
This indicates if the slave is a Listening Type. Listening means that the slave is always powered on and so can be polled by UCM/ZWave. If the slave is not listening, it may only turn on periodically like a motion sensor or temperature sensor. Non-listening devices will not be polled."

Whether the device is set to listen or not, it is determined by the device manufacturer.



 Posted: Monday Jan 26th, 2015 07:18 pm
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Vangelis
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My question is more if '6 Static_Controller - Static_Controller (Blue)' is the correct ZWave device to be seen in my HA?

In that it see's Comfort as '6 Static_Controller - Static_Controller (Blue)' and will 'Listen' for cmds from it?

Also is the 'Zwave BasicSetCommand' the correct way, in Comfort OnResponse, to send a ZWave cmd?

Vangelis



 Posted: Tuesday Jan 27th, 2015 05:42 am
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leonchue
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Are you asking if UCM/Zwave is Device ID 6?  
It should be, as it is in blue.  You can always double check the field "Node ID", under "UCM/Z-Wave Properties" tab.

As UCM/Zwave is always powered on, its "listening" field is "Yes".  This means that the device will not go into sleep mode (which stop receiving commands) and always listening for commands.

"Also is the 'Zwave BasicSetCommand' the correct way, in Comfort OnResponse, to send a ZWave cmd?" 
Yes, that is how Zwave commands are sent.  

But in your case "Zwave BasicSetCommand UCM02 1 0 255", it is sending to ID 1 (Primary controller).  You are trying to switch on a controller and it has no meaning.  

If you are trying to update a device status, the only way is for the controller to poll for the device status.  See http://www.comfortforums.com/forum62/4065.html for more details. 








 Posted: Tuesday Jan 27th, 2015 06:39 am
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slychiu
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Can I summarise these 2 threads for everybodys benefit

What you are trying to do is the have a comfort zone (eg PIR) to act as a Zwave node so that when the zone goes on and off, the corresponding zwave node turns on and off.

You have created a virtual node 7 - Switch Multilevel (green) in Comfort

A virtual node is a zwave node that is in Comfort instead of a real zwave device. A  Virtual Node can be mapped to counter, sensor, flag, output etc in Comfort

The easiest way to achieve what you want is to map the virtual node to a Flag eg Flag 1

In Zone Response, set the Flag 1. In Zone Response Off, clear the flag 1

Hence zone turning on will set the Zwave Node 7 ON and the zone off will switch off the Zwave Node 7. This means that the Zwave Node 7 follows the  state of the comfort zone.

The controller or other zwave device needs to poll the zwave node in order to know the state of the Comfort zone




Last edited on Tuesday Jan 27th, 2015 06:53 am by slychiu



 Posted: Wednesday Jan 28th, 2015 04:29 pm
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ewenjc
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I've been trying to set this up but I'm stuck.

I have a flag on a virtual node that is getting set when a sensor triggers but I can't get my primary controller to poll the virtual node. I have a Fibaro HC2. It shows the poll time as 0 but won't let me set a different value. Could this be because it doesn't 'own' the parameters of this node - it is owned by comfort. Has anyone with Fibaro HC2 got this bit working?

It puzzles me that there is not some way for comfort to send a zwave message in the same way that actual zwave sensor devices send a message. I have a Fibaro door sensor that can send a message to the zwave network (and primary controller) to say it has changed state. It doesn't have to be associated with another device or be polled. Why can't comfort send a 'changed state' zwave message?

Ewen



 Posted: Thursday Jan 29th, 2015 07:57 am
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leonchue
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"I have a flag on a virtual node that is getting set when a sensor triggers but I can't get my primary controller to poll the virtual node. I have a Fibaro HC2. It shows the poll time as 0 but won't let me set a different value. Could this be because it doesn't 'own' the parameters of this node - it is owned by comfort. Has anyone with Fibaro HC2 got this bit working?"

HC2 polling parameter does not belong to Comfort.  We cannot control how often they poll.  Maybe you can check with HC2 why this is so.



"It puzzles me that there is not some way for comfort to send a zwave message in the same way that actual zwave sensor devices send a message. I have a Fibaro door sensor that can send a message to the zwave network (and primary controller) to say it has changed state. It doesn't have to be associated with another device or be polled. Why can't comfort send a 'changed state' zwave message?"

This has to do with Z-Wave operations.  Sensors can do that, but not all.  
Comfort's virtual node is certified as multilevel switch.  Like other devices, they cannot perform like the sensor way.  It is not that we do not want that.



 Posted: Thursday Jan 29th, 2015 02:30 pm
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Vangelis
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I thought this mode of operation would have been supported also, but alas it seems not to be the case. (which renders my UCM/Zwave module obsolete for my purpose)

The alternative is to splice in a Fibaro Universal Sensor to the hardwired PIRs etc to create the ZWave cmd for my HA system to receive.

Vangelis



 Posted: Thursday Jan 29th, 2015 11:24 pm
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ewenjc
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With a Fibaro Universal Sensor it should be possible to encode the status of all sensors plus alarm state and wire it direct to comfort rather than wire it to the PIRs. It would need a bit of programming, but it seems crazy to buy a device designed for systems that can't talk zwave, given that comfort can talk zwave. I've also wondered whether it is possible to use UCM/ETH3 to send an http message to Fibaro HC2 in order to pass on sensor activation.

Passing on information about the alarm state and sensors was my main reason for getting Zwave UCM and upgrading my comfort v1 to new board. So it is rather frustrating that it doesn't support it. I've not yet found a way to get Fibaro HC2 to poll comfort's virtual node. The virtual node as seen by Fibaro HC2 seems to be missing key data, e.g. version, zwave protocol type, zwave protocol version etc.

I understand that comforts virtual node as a switch is very useful for instructing comfort to do various things from a zwave device. However, in order for comfort to tell other zwave devices what it's doing it seem that we need a second type of virtual node that acts like a sensor (send message on status change). With these two types of virtual nodes we could do most things.

Please can we have an option to choose the type of virtual node; switch or sensor?
Ewen



 Posted: Thursday Jan 29th, 2015 11:27 pm
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juwi_uk
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Get's my vote!  :)



 Posted: Friday Jan 30th, 2015 10:43 am
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Ingo
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+1 for a MultilevelSensor Virtual node.



 Posted: Friday Jan 30th, 2015 11:32 am
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slychiu
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I've not yet found a way to get Fibaro HC2 to poll comfort's virtual node. The virtual node as seen by Fibaro HC2 seems to be missing key data, e.g. version, zwave protocol type, zwave protocol version etc.
That is not true. UCM/ZWAVE supplies all the required information to any Zwave device polling it.

Please note that UCM/Zwave is a Zwave-certified device so it has been tested by Zwave to comply with all the necessary requirements.

The Fibaro Universal Sensor and HC2 are NOT Zwave-certified, as you can verify at http://z-wavealliance.org/
It is more appropriate to ask Fibaro why they are not able to obtain any information or set the polling time, and why they are not certified. If they comply with Zwave standards then they should be able to set the polling time.

I believe for your case you just need to find out why the Fibaro is not able to poll the Virtual node, but the correct party to answer this is Fibaro

Otherwise a workaround to Fibaros problem is to get the zone to send on and off status to another Fibaro mode and get the HC2 to poll that


I understand that comforts virtual node as a switch is very useful for instructing comfort to do various things from a zwave device. However, in order for comfort to tell other zwave devices what it's doing it seem that we need a second type of virtual node that acts like a sensor (send message on status change). With these two types of virtual nodes we could do most things. Please can we have an option to choose the type of virtual node; switch or sensor?
This is not an easy subject, and is related to how zwave works

Zwave does not in general broadcast any change in state of any device or node. A more useful function from the automation perpective is that any change in state is automatically sent to the devices that are associated with it. This is the behaviour of C-Bus, KNX and most other automation systems. Instead, any device which wants to know the status needs to keep polling the node. Too much polling is discouraged by Zwave for the reason that it clogs up the RF and may interfere with other traffic


Z-wave has been adding many command classes as time goes by, and it is not a trivial matter to support a new class. The UCM/Zwave needs to handle many different tasks related to the class, and it needs to be recertified for every new class that is supported which is not cheap.

The sensor class is one class that is able to send its sensor status to the controller, and this is a recent addition. However the comfort zone status is not a Sensor, it is a switch ie has on/off state. Having many PIRs sending on/off status constantly to Zwave may also be a problem for the RF.



 Posted: Friday Jan 30th, 2015 12:39 pm
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Hmm yep i forgot your recertification costs; makes you wonder if it's worth the paper it's written on then as if Fibaro doesn't have it doesn't seem to be stopping them storming the market and being successful. 
I assumed you needed to have certification to be able to use the zwave logo?  If you can still promote as ZWave without it then I'd plump for functionality over certification any day.
Some of the challenges i feel, and i had early problematic firmware ACT modules when i started out with ZWave  and still the case it seems with all devices I've added since is that you can't upgrade the firmware and hence why i guess certification is important up front.
Cytech are the same with the ZWave daughter card.   If you could somehow build in flash program-ability  like we have with the eth3  then with Cytechs brilliant firmware and responsive customer support you'd be able to be really agile supporting new features/libraries come into service.
Ju



 Posted: Sunday Feb 1st, 2015 10:40 pm
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ewenjc
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I agree that getting Fibaro HC2 to poll the virtual node appears to be a Fibaro issue and I am looking into that on the Fibaro Forum.

I also agree that polling in general is not a great solution. With frequent polling it results in way too much additional RF traffic and with infrequent polling the information is old news before the message has been delivered. A sensor class virtual node seems to be the only effective way to communicate a change in state as it happens with a minimum of messages.



 Posted: Thursday Mar 19th, 2015 06:15 pm
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ewenjc
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Good News (ish)
I have successfully got a virtual node to show a change in state from comfort to Fibaro HC2 (in my example its a wired comfort sensor being triggered that sets a comfort counter that is associated with the zwave virtual node). I was not able to specify the polling frequency but it appears to be using a default that gets the message delivered in approx 7-15 minutes.
The delay in getting the message polled means this approach is of no real use for turning on lights when a sensor triggers, but the delay will not be too much of a problem for logic based on the alarm being set (i.e. house occupied or not).

Hi Chiu,
I appreciate the recertification cost is an issue and have 2 ideas that may or may not get around that;

> Is it at all possible to have a beta software for the zwave UCM, with all necessary disclaimers (i.e. not certified), that includes a sensor type virtual node?

> Would it be possible to add a confirmation message to the existing dimmer type virtual node. Typically a zwave dimmer is instructed to set to a specific level and the dimmer then sends a confirmation that it has set to that level. I'm guessing that the comfort virtual node doesn't broadcast any type of confirmation message. Would it be possible to add a confirmation message that would be visible to the primary controller within the current certification?

Thanks
Ewen



 Posted: Friday Mar 20th, 2015 01:53 pm
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slychiu
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Thanks for the suggestions
we wil discuss it internally

7 to 15 minutes seems much too long. Is it consistent?



 Posted: Tuesday Mar 24th, 2015 06:22 am
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slychiu
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I have successfully got a virtual node to show a change in state from comfort to Fibaro HC2 (in my example its a wired comfort sensor being triggered that sets a comfort counter that is associated with the zwave virtual node). I was not able to specify the polling frequency but it appears to be using a default that gets the message delivered in approx 7-15 minutes. The slow polling frequency of 7 to 15 minutes is controlled by Fibaro



The delay in getting the message polled means this approach is of no real use for turning on lights when a sensor triggers, but the delay will not be too much of a problem for logic based on the alarm being set (i.e. house occupied or not).
I think a better solution is to use the Counter or Flag to send a zwave command so it acts instantanously. If a counter is mapped to a Zwave in Zwave mapping then any change in the counter or flag will correspndingly turn on or off the mapped zwave address


> Is it at all possible to have a beta software for the zwave UCM, with all necessary disclaimers (i.e. not certified), that includes a sensor type virtual node?
That is a possibility but it stil involves quite a bit of development time, which we are in short supply as there are many projects under development

a zwave dimmer is instructed to set to a specific level and the dimmer then sends a confirmation that it has set to that level.  Would it be possible to add a confirmation message that would be visible to the primary controller within the current certification?

That is incorrect. The dimmer does not send a confirmation message to the controller. The controller polls the dimmer to confirm that it has changed state. This behaviour is mandated by Zwave







 Posted: Wednesday Mar 25th, 2015 08:13 pm
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ewenjc
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Thanks for the reply.

I've given up on polling. The 7-15 minutes was wrong, it sometimes takes over an hour so I think I got lucky on the first few tests. I think standard polling is not happening at all, possibly because the controller doesn't like the virtual node - it has no values set for things like Zwave protocol type and protocol version so it may not know which version of message to use to poll it (still waiting for Fibaro support to get back to me about why it won't allow a polling interval to be set). But even if it did work constant polling is a bad idea.

I have a work around in place that uses a Fibaro Dimmer Module with no load. Comfort sets the level to (a+b); a = 0,20,40,60,80 to represent security mode (off, away, day, night & holiday), b = the id of the triggered zone. The Fibaro controller watches for changes to this dimmer and sets 2 variables; security_mode and sensor_id. Other scenes watch to see if the sensor_id is set to their value and trigger lights etc accordingly. It seems to work ok but I've not tested with multiple triggers yet. Response time is about 1 second and no polling. But it is a waste of a perfectly decent dimmer module. Comfort setting the zwave dimmer value to a specific number is being done per zone as I can't see how to set the dimmer value with a specific calculated number.

Your last point about confirmation message is a surprise. I though zwave received confirmation (one of the reasons it's superior to X10 which didn't confirm success). If I get Comfort to set a dimmer value, the Fibaro controller knows that this was successful. If this is polling it must be polled immediately rather that on a timed basis. How does the controller know that it should poll the dimmer unless a zwave device told it it should. I thought it might be association as the dimmers seems to be associated with the primary controller. If it is association is there any way to set the virtual node to have default association to id =1. Fibaro refuses to setup any association on the virtual node, possibly due to the missing parameters (as per above).



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