Comfort Home Automation/ Security System Forums Home
Home Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register

Wiring shock sensors ?
 Moderated by: admin
 New Topic   Reply   Printer Friendly 
 Rate Topic 
AuthorPost
 Posted: Thursday Dec 28th, 2017 04:32 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
1st Post
wexfordman
UCM Pi Users
 

Joined: Monday Jan 1st, 2007
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 519
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Sorry if this is a daft question, I think it is but as its being discussed on another forum thought I'd best check here.
1) is there any issue with wiring up shock sensors to comfort, and can standard sensors be used ? What settings do you use ?



 Posted: Thursday Dec 28th, 2017 04:51 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
2nd Post
Swiss-Toni
UCM Pi Users


Joined: Thursday Sep 15th, 2011
Location: Greater London, United Kingdom
Posts: 252
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

they are either NO or NC circuits it should go straigt in with either setting they work in the same way as a PIR or door contact.....
Ps their is no such things as a daft question, knowledge all started from questioning!

Last edited on Thursday Dec 28th, 2017 04:53 pm by Swiss-Toni



 Posted: Thursday Dec 28th, 2017 04:56 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
3rd Post
wexfordman
UCM Pi Users
 

Joined: Monday Jan 1st, 2007
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 519
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Thanks Tony,
So the settings are pretty much in the zone settings where you would slect the sensitivity for the shock sensor ? Don't have access to clmfigurator at the moment so can see the options for zone type



 Posted: Thursday Dec 28th, 2017 04:57 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
4th Post
slychiu
Administrator


Joined: Saturday Apr 29th, 2006
Location: Singapore
Posts: 4330
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

If the shock sensor has a processor, it should have a dry cocntact like a PIR so normal settings for zone like door/window can be used

if it is a raw vibration sensor which has very fast transitions then you need a very fast sensitivity setting, see the Vibrartion zine type



 Posted: Friday Dec 29th, 2017 07:45 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
5th Post
wexfordman
UCM Pi Users
 

Joined: Monday Jan 1st, 2007
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 519
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

slychiu wrote: If the shock sensor has a processor, it should have a dry cocntact like a PIR so normal settings for zone like door/window can be used

if it is a raw vibration sensor which has very fast transitions then you need a very fast sensitivity setting, see the Vibrartion zine type

Hi slychiu,
There is a discussion in an IOT forum where I was mentioning ck fort and ST integration, but some of the users are querying as to whether comfort is suitable as an alarm system and his it handles shock sensor's, which I am not familiar with.
So perhaps you could clarify how comfort handles shock sensor's, as many are saying that it would require an external analyser board to do it correctly ?Can you define both Gross and Pulse parameters for shock sensors to monitor for both types of attack?
Could you also link to comfort standards etc so I can link to them in the forum ?

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057750838/4/#post105671816



 Posted: Saturday Dec 30th, 2017 06:20 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
6th Post
slychiu
Administrator


Joined: Saturday Apr 29th, 2006
Location: Singapore
Posts: 4330
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

That link does not work

Shock sensors or vibration sensors detect vibration

Those with a processor will analyse the vibration amplitude and duration and determine if it is a real "shock"
Those without processors give contacts but they will switch on and off very rapidly, and are prone to false alarms, eg a slight tap may cause it to trigger
For comfort to process these select the Vribraton zone type which has sensitivity = 20 ms so it can detect the transitions, but use a Zone Response  Vibration Analyser in  Default Responses. This makes an alarm if there are 3 activations within 30 seconss



 Posted: Saturday Dec 30th, 2017 04:21 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
7th Post
OhPinchy
Member
 

Joined: Wednesday Dec 27th, 2017
Location:  
Posts: 5
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Hi, repasting link to the Boards.ie thread here https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057750838.

I am user FrankGrimes on that thread and am considering purchasing Comfort (based on excellent advice from wexfordman).

Alarm installers on that thread are highlighting a potential deficiency in Comfort vs standard alarm panels (in Ireland HKC is most prevalent player): HKC alarms allow both Gross and Pulse settings to be configured:

If a single large blow is detected above the acceptable Gross level, the alarm will sound (e.g. set it high enough to ignore wind, but low enough to detect a hammer strike).

If a single blow is below the acceptable Gross level, but is followed by further soft blows (below Gross level) within a certain timeframe, then the alarm will sound. This is controlled by the Pulse setting and being able to configure it is important for avoiding false alarms caused by recurring gusts of wind etc.

Assuming we are talking about shock sensors without inbuilt processors (as one imagines it’s more time consuming to trial-and-error test these by having to walk to each one and adjust settings on it directly e.g. by dip switches):

1. Can Comfort detect and differentiate between Gross and Pulse attacks?

2. Can the thresholds for both these type of attacks be configured in the Comfigurator software?

3. Is any additional hardware (e.g. a separate shock sensor analyzer board) required to provide this functionality (and if so, what hardware is recommended)?

Rather than try interpret whether your previous response addresses the above, it would be great to avoid any possible ambiguity: I hope the answers confirm this functionality is provided by Comfort as this will help ensure it is regarded as on par with the main alarm panels in Ireland (and is then strongly differentiated by its fantastic automation capabilities). Since becoming aware of it, both my electrician/alarm installer brother-in-law and close friend builder are very interested in learning more and possibly adopting it in their jobs - I reckon the more people find out about how powerful it is, the more adoption there will start to be in Ireland. And I’m very much looking forward to getting to grips with it myself! Thanks



 Posted: Saturday Dec 30th, 2017 06:37 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
8th Post
Swiss-Toni
UCM Pi Users


Joined: Thursday Sep 15th, 2011
Location: Greater London, United Kingdom
Posts: 252
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

I have not wired in a tremblor sensor for years as not often called for these days, however it will still come down to the type of vibration sensors that you use. I cannot see any reason why Comfort system would not be able to handle a vibration sensor of any kind as with any sensor they all work on either a open or closed signal and with intelligent system it will determine vibration level setting before triggering, I think you would need to look at the vibration sensor you want to use and then ask SLYCHIU if it is comapatable (probably would be) and what settings to enter when programing that particular zone.
Or ask if anyone has used that particular sensor on the forum and what settings they used and for any issues surrounding it.



 Posted: Sunday Dec 31st, 2017 09:52 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
9th Post
slychiu
Administrator


Joined: Saturday Apr 29th, 2006
Location: Singapore
Posts: 4330
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

OK, it seems that HKC does claim "analyser" capability in every zone

However given that the panel inputs accept Open/Close contacts, the analysis capability is limited to measuring the duration and count of pulses, and not the actual strength or amplitude of the vibration.

In that case both Gross and Pulse count settings can be achieved with Comfort, although not under those names.

"Gross" level can be handled by the Zone Type sensitivity setting, from 20 ms to 800 ms (7 levels), is the duration of the activation. Lower values are for higher sensitivity and higher values for lower sensitivity.

Pulse count can be handled by the Vibration Analyser Response eg 3 counts in 30 seconds (both parameters can be changed) in the response. Hence Comfort gives fine tuning of the pulse count and timing compared to those which have fixed levels of pulse count like HKC.

These settings are useful when used with low cost vibration/shock sensors which have a ball and cup design and do not have inbuilt analysers


There are also many other shock sensors with analysers eg https://firesecurityproducts.com/product/intrusion/GS620BN/61841

From that link, it describes exactly how Comfort handles it except Comfort has another adjustable variable of 30 seconds for the pulse counts

"The analysing capability has two separate detection criteria: gross attack and pulse count. The gross attack threshold is designed to react to a single blow, while pulse count alarms when a pre-selected number of smaller shocks, occuring within a 30 second timing interval is reached. Both detection levels can be adjusted so that the installlation can be fine tuned to the environment and fully tested using the walk test facility. This digital signal processing is designed to eliminate false alarms and assure reliable detection of all types of attacks."

Comfort can be used with either type of sensor.




Last edited on Sunday Dec 31st, 2017 09:57 am by slychiu



 Posted: Wednesday Jan 3rd, 2018 04:04 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
10th Post
OhPinchy
Member
 

Joined: Wednesday Dec 27th, 2017
Location:  
Posts: 5
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Thank you very much slychiu for the comprehensive response. That makes it clear that the gross and pulse attack detection I need is provided for by Comfort. I will move ahead with ordering the Comfort equipment shortly and look forward to getting to use it. 
I will consider what type of shock sensors I go for and if there is any doubt about compatibility will return to seek clarification, though it sounds like it's quite likely any sensor I go for will be covered. Thanks again



 Posted: Wednesday Jan 3rd, 2018 04:40 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
11th Post
slychiu
Administrator


Joined: Saturday Apr 29th, 2006
Location: Singapore
Posts: 4330
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

I am confident these settings will handle almost all sensors of this type.  I have personally been on site with installers where the window grill frame was very large, so that a light tap can set off the sensor, to small and rigid plates where you need a large bang. The sensitivity setting and count allows you to cater for both extremes

Comfort is not quite as easy as a normal alarm system to set up, but let uis know if you have problems



 Current time is 07:27 pm
Top




UltraBB 1.172 Copyright © 2007-2014 Data 1 Systems