Comfort Home Automation/ Security System Forums Home
Home Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register

IRIO Failure
 Moderated by: slychiu
 New Topic   Reply   Printer Friendly 
 Rate Topic 
AuthorPost
 Posted: Friday May 29th, 2020 02:11 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
1st Post
John W
UCM Pi Users
 

Joined: Wednesday Feb 18th, 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 107
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

I noticed via the comfort app last night that my system was reporting an RS485 comms failure with an IRIO.On investigating today, I've had a small fire :shock:
This panel is in a metal sealed/vented enclosure that controlls some of the garden lights.The board takes its logic power over cat5 from the main panel.The mains is supplied by an MK RCBO 6Amp (didnt trip)I can switch all the lights independently using mains switches and they all work fine.These lights havent been switched on recently.
It looks like something on the Relay Sub board has let go, and created a small fire.I'm not sure if the IRIO carrier board is damaged electrically. Its socket upstand is a bit melted. Both sub boards had their power leds on. 
So, the questions are:-should I expect this sort of failure ?-if I replace the boards what is to say it won't happen again ?-Would just the failure of a single sub-board cause it to report a comms failure, or is the main board damaged too ?-Chiu do you want more info to investigate ?-is there any good will discount / replacement on this ?
I will attached some pictures in a moment (already written all this once to then fail on attachment and lose it all :( )
Cheers,     John.

Attachment: IRIO_in_box_30.jpg (Downloaded 28 times)

Last edited on Friday May 29th, 2020 02:12 pm by John W



 Posted: Friday May 29th, 2020 02:16 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
2nd Post
John W
UCM Pi Users
 

Joined: Wednesday Feb 18th, 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 107
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

.

Attachment: 20200529_133642_30.jpg (Downloaded 27 times)



 Posted: Friday May 29th, 2020 02:18 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
3rd Post
John W
UCM Pi Users
 

Joined: Wednesday Feb 18th, 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 107
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

.

Attachment: 20200529_140651_30.jpg (Downloaded 27 times)



 Posted: Friday May 29th, 2020 02:20 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
4th Post
John W
UCM Pi Users
 

Joined: Wednesday Feb 18th, 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 107
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

.

Attachment: 20200529_140806_30.jpg (Downloaded 28 times)



 Posted: Friday May 29th, 2020 02:25 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
5th Post
John W
UCM Pi Users
 

Joined: Wednesday Feb 18th, 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 107
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

.

Attachment: 20200529_140607_20.jpg (Downloaded 26 times)



 Posted: Friday May 29th, 2020 04:56 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
6th Post
Swiss-Toni
UCM Pi Users


Joined: Thursday Sep 15th, 2011
Location: Greater London, United Kingdom
Posts: 322
Status: 
Online

  back to top

Before I start Im not critising the installation, but that has been caused by a short, looking at the photo's the likelihood is that it has been caused by moisture causing a bridge and arcing out the board.
When dealing with equipment like this it cannot be istalled in damp locations, if it has to be then an enclosure should be built around it to seal the comfort panel against any moisture getting in.

Last edited on Friday May 29th, 2020 04:57 pm by Swiss-Toni



 Posted: Friday May 29th, 2020 06:22 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
7th Post
John W
UCM Pi Users
 

Joined: Wednesday Feb 18th, 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 107
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Thanks swiss-tony.
It is in an ip rated Himmel enclosure with a gasket sealed door.
The mounting bolts have rubber washer around the bolts both sides, the top of the cabinet has no holes in it, the top rear of it is shielded to stop moisture getting down the back.
An alloy carrier panel is fitted inside to the mounting bolts, which has a Stego 8W NTC enclosure heating element to ensure it doesn't get too cold in winter, and meant to stop condensation.
A stego vent plug is fitted in the bottom of the enclosure. All cables enter the enclosure through the bottom using glands (all mains ones are armoured cable, only other one is underground grade cat5+).

The carrier panel has DIN rails on it (all my panels do incase they are needed for localised din mounted devices), but the comfort pcb is mounted using plastic stand offs.

What did I miss ?

Thanks,John.

Last edited on Friday May 29th, 2020 06:23 pm by John W



 Posted: Friday May 29th, 2020 07:01 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
8th Post
Swiss-Toni
UCM Pi Users


Joined: Thursday Sep 15th, 2011
Location: Greater London, United Kingdom
Posts: 322
Status: 
Online

  back to top

Looking at the first picture you can see rust which indicates moisture is getting in somewhere, I cant say where it is getting in, I can only go by what I can see, it only takes a drop to cause catastrophic problems, I would say there is a distinct possability of it happening again under those circumstances in my opinion....



 Posted: Friday May 29th, 2020 07:19 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
9th Post
John W
UCM Pi Users
 

Joined: Wednesday Feb 18th, 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 107
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Your right, there is a bit of surface rust. This box used to have a switch panel in itbefore I fitted the IRIO, and it didn't have a heater in it then, or a vent plug.
I will give it a pressure washing, see if any water gets in.Assuming it doesn't, what else should I be doing or looking for ?Like I said, what have I missed ?
I have two other cabinets that have similar setups although they use RIOs and relay boards. No surface rust at all in them.
Any suggestions gratefully received.



 Posted: Friday May 29th, 2020 08:41 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
10th Post
Swiss-Toni
UCM Pi Users


Joined: Thursday Sep 15th, 2011
Location: Greater London, United Kingdom
Posts: 322
Status: 
Online

  back to top

Other than moisture creating the problem, other posibilities elctrical strands faulty components the list could be potentialy endless the boards touching, but from what i can see the fault lies in arcing (shorting out). other than what I have said and seen I could not suggest anything at all.



 Posted: Saturday May 30th, 2020 07:06 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
11th Post
slychiu
Administrator


Joined: Saturday Apr 29th, 2006
Location: Singapore
Posts: 4953
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

The ISM06 and ISM07 should not be used to switch 230V (assuming thatis the case from the thick wires) even though the relays are rated for 10A at 230V. This is because the spacing between the relay contacts and the other logic sections on the IRIO PCB is not far way enough so that arcing is possible.

If you need to switch higher voltage the more suitable products are IRIO-IO general IRIO and RLE02 in Din rail Enclosures,
see http://www.cytech.biz/irio_module_8_io_with_enclosure.html



and http://www.cytech.biz/relay_module_with_8_relays_in_din_rail_enclosure.html


Let me know if you would like to get this instead




 Posted: Saturday May 30th, 2020 09:28 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
12th Post
John W
UCM Pi Users
 

Joined: Wednesday Feb 18th, 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 107
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

chiu,


I find this absolutely astounding for you to say the boards aren't suitable to switch mains voltage.


What do you expect people to be using these boards for ?


I remind you that the two you post above were not available when the IRIO and the sub boards I have were released / purchased.

At that time the ISM04 was yet to be available to order, despite being posted about.


Also, take a look at this post, where a user mentions current rating of contacts, and you tell him to use the ISM06 (initially ISM07 too, but corrected by Ingo)

https://www.srcf.fr/forum/f37-beta.html

There was a lengthy discussion around these boards back when you introduced them over which was suitable for switching lighting, based on current rating of contacts, and that included the current rating between the two types of boards.
Read most of the threads in this section and you make no mention of not being suitable to switch mains voltage, only current rating.

This is why I bought the ones I did, rather than the board with lower rated contacts (which incidentally I do have too, elsewhere).


This feels so much like I was a beta tester...


The sales information says it suitable to control lights, heating and fans.
https://www.srcf.fr/forum/f37-BETA.html
Do you expect people to fit a relay panel to switch the mains, and your relays just switch those relays ?
If so that is nuts !


To be clear here, this panel switches less than 6A TOTAL.
Each output switches as follows:

- 4 x 40w lamps (conventional incandescent)

- 1 x 60w lamp (conventional incandescent)

- 1 x 60w lamp (conventional incandescent)

- 4 x 20w step lamps (smpsu for leds in each)

- 1 x 20w lamp (cfl)

- 1 x 20w lamp (cfl)

So all are switching less than 1Amp, but I was conscious of any potential inrush current.



I'm now waiting for you to tell me the RLY01B's I am using to switch our other lights are not suitable for the job either...

Not feeling the love this end.
I'm a great supporter of the comfort system, had it for close on 20 years, evolving and updating it over time, but this makes me question the suitability of my installation.

I had intended to replace a bunch of my lighting control with these but held off. Glad I did now...

Sorry if this seems like a rant, but I spent a bunch of time making sure I made the right choices. If I hadn't had this problem I would be totally oblivious of your statement that they aren't suitable for mains switching...



 Posted: Saturday May 30th, 2020 09:41 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
13th Post
John W
UCM Pi Users
 

Joined: Wednesday Feb 18th, 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 107
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

I'm pleased to see you finally got the Din mounted IRIO-IO and RLE-02 out.

Send me a price for both, I can't see them on the laser web site. If I were to use these in the cabinet above, how are they any better than what I have ?

Can I connect the RLE-02 to a normal IRIO, or must it be an IRIO-IO?
I suspect the latter due to the new connectors not on the IRIO-IO.

On a different note, Can the TWS control 4 independent lights, or are the channels / relays interconnected such that one is on & the other off.



 Posted: Saturday May 30th, 2020 10:02 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
14th Post
John W
UCM Pi Users
 

Joined: Wednesday Feb 18th, 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 107
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Swiss-Toni wrote: Other than moisture creating the problem, other posibilities elctrical strands faulty components the list could be potentialy endless the boards touching, but from what i can see the fault lies in arcing (shorting out). other than what I have said and seen I could not suggest anything at all.
Swiss-Toni Thanks again for your replies.
The boards don't touch, their distance is governed by the connectors.There were/are no strands floating about.
I will give the cabinet a good clean, and check the heater is actually working, as that's the only thing aside from the board substrate or connector breaking down I can think of. Oh, and check the vent is not blocked.
The only thing above this board is the loop of the grey cat5 cable.
I have some things to try, then decide how best to proceed.
Thanks again.



 Posted: Saturday May 30th, 2020 10:35 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
15th Post
slychiu
Administrator


Joined: Saturday Apr 29th, 2006
Location: Singapore
Posts: 4953
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Relays are not just meant to switch mains voltage. They give dry contact  to any equipmenty for example auto-gates, electronic door locks, blinds, garage openers etc
However it is true that we have not given sufficient warning that mains voltage should not be switched with ISM06 and ISM07 because of the proximity to the electronic circuits so I apologise for the oversight. I will send a PM about our offer for the IRIO/RLE as replacement. RLE02 is used with IRIO-IO but it also has 12V inputs that can be used with other products including IRIO01
RLY01H can be used to switch mains voltage because there is not any circuitry on the board. However you must ensure that it is mounted correctly and the mains cables arr not in danger of contacting other circuits

IRIO-TWS controls 4 independent lights. I suggest this if you mean to control On/Off lights



 Posted: Monday Jun 1st, 2020 06:38 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
16th Post
John W
UCM Pi Users
 

Joined: Wednesday Feb 18th, 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 107
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Thanks for your reply.

I just checked and as yet don't have any PM from you.

Prices for each would be good please.
Also, can you confirm please whether the ISM04 two way switch module can be used to switch mains 240v lighting ?This is what is suggested in the description, and shown by the diagrams, yet this module doesn't have the logic separation you mention above either.Just checking as I have these in my installation too...

Last edited on Monday Jun 1st, 2020 08:51 pm by John W



 Posted: Tuesday Jun 2nd, 2020 10:31 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
17th Post
slychiu
Administrator


Joined: Saturday Apr 29th, 2006
Location: Singapore
Posts: 4953
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Sorry, have not been abe to send yet, but will do later
ISM04is not a product that is sol
In fact IRIO-TWS is actually 2 ISM04 and IRIOso ISM04 is used when programing IRIO-TWS



 Posted: Tuesday Jun 2nd, 2020 10:42 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
18th Post
slychiu
Administrator


Joined: Saturday Apr 29th, 2006
Location: Singapore
Posts: 4953
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Please check your email



 Posted: Tuesday Jun 2nd, 2020 06:29 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
19th Post
John W
UCM Pi Users
 

Joined: Wednesday Feb 18th, 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 107
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Thank you.
Received it, will reply later.



 Current time is 01:28 pm
Top




UltraBB 1.172 Copyright © 2007-2014 Data 1 Systems