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slychiu
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Posted: Friday Nov 17th, 2006 11:57 am |
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This is a debate about whether Comfort should be sold to end users who install themselves, which was posted in the Comfigurator Forum
Lets hear other opinions.
Post By Andy Ellis - Household Automation
I was at a customers premesis yesterday afternoon to add some additinal sensors - I left after fully testing and documenting etc a couple of hours later I get a message on my mobile to say the telephone line was permanently engaged......... I call back this morning and sure enough the line is engaged. After going through every setting possible re-loading old programs etc after 4 hours of testing and daignosis I find that the tel cables have been compressed on the casing lid - so all the time I have tested with the casing off there was nothing wrong and only intermittent when the casing was put back on. All now sorted. The moral being that this episode was painfull enough for me who has been installing comfort now for 5 years. To a novice this sort of problem would have been a nightmare and just goes to show that Comfort is an INSTALLED product. In fact I would go as far as to say that you should consider ONLY selling to recognised installers - the number of installs I go to where we are called in to sort out problems caused by poorly wired ir insatlled systems. All of this cannot do the reputation of Comfort any good. Reply By Chiu, Cytech
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Supporting end users who self install can be difficult and time-consuming, and may not be worth the trouble, (and this is a debate which has been going on for some years in the Yahoo Groups), but we still want to persist with them because of the following reasons, which I repeat from my arguments in the aforementioned forum * They are the ones who fully utilise many of Comforts capabitiies, and they give valuable feedback which we dont get from customers of installers * They are the early adopters who can give good word of mouth "buzz" through other HA forums, contacts etc * Their numbers are not significant in the population and they would not reduce installers incomes. If Comfort is not available, they would buy some other product. HAI (an American product) is not sold to end-users, and this may be one of the reasons why they dont have much of a presence (in the UK) * They are usually technically capable and usually are able to install and program Comfort
Reply By Andy Ellis - Household Automation
Yes all points in agreement However we are now seeing an ever increasing number of Comfort installations that we have refered to us. The state of some of them is appauling e.g One recently I refused to take it on unless they had the main panel re-wired. Another was using all of his light switches into comfort relays and rio to operate about 30 X10 lighting circuits. Obviously a completely floored design as it is totally reliant on comfort and the X10 onterface to switch any light in the house. The customer had just moved in and was renting with an agreement to pay for any electrical remedial work. Another .... oh well you get the picture. Another point is that in my opinion it is critical to plan the wiring into comfort other wise even with a tidy arrangement after a couple of years of adding accessories the main boards look like a birds nest. Tidy wiring is the key to a good Comfort installation i simply cannot emphasise this enough. With the best will in the world some body who is wiring the unit for the first time is not likely to make the tidiest of jobs of wiring the unit. Another point is 'decomissioning' of automation systems - people moving into a property that has formerly been automated by the previous resident are usually overwhelemed by the sometimes bizar functionality. Home automation is a bespoke set up. We often now get asked to de-automate properties! So although i agree in principle to the points you make my overall opinion would be that selling this product to the general public to install is no a good idea. Perhaps when selling to the general public you should make your views more promenant may be by adding appropriate text to the installation manuals or web sites.
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slychiu
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Posted: Friday Nov 17th, 2006 12:01 pm |
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Is it possible that some of these poorly installed systems were installed by Installers who were not so well trained or professional?
Perhaps it should be a requirement for those who install themselves to attend a traning course on Comfort, in which they pay for the course and the kit together. Then that would ensure that they have the basic knowledge and skills required
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Comfort Distributors
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Posted: Friday Nov 17th, 2006 01:00 pm |
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Yes one of the ones i had in mind was installed by a Home Automation compnay (who no longer trade) but i'm not pointing fingers.
Once again another good set of ideas they would cerainly help.
Also that recognised installers should be more than just listed they should actually be vetted. I am sure i could come up with a list of things that the installer should have to comply with or a heck list of things they should be doing. However as you suggest I'm sure i'm not the only one with views on the subject!
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Comfort Distributors
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Posted: Thursday Jan 11th, 2007 07:44 pm |
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I see that V2.1.2 has a far reduced tuning parameters screen is this part way to achieving the above?
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slychiu
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Posted: Friday Jan 12th, 2007 12:57 am |
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No, Tuning parameters for Comfort II is differerent from Comfoort I.
The next verson of comfiugrator will allow download by Engineer code only so it isup to installers to decide whether to let customers have the code
User changes in future wil be by WizComfort
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Comfort Distributors
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Posted: Friday Jan 12th, 2007 07:02 am |
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Excellent
Thanks
Can we have access to beta version well in advance of release
Thanks
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dcrera
Comfort Installers
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Posted: Friday Jul 6th, 2007 05:06 am |
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Hi,
I have a question with regards to a comment Andy Ellis made :
Another was using all of his light switches into comfort relays and rio to operate about 30 X10 lighting circuits. Obviously a completely floored design as it is totally reliant on comfort and the X10 onterface to switch any light in the house.
I have all my lights controlled via SCS and RIO's using relays is this a problem ? In this set up what are the alternatives of not being totally reliant on Comfort ?
Thanks
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adlim
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Posted: Friday Jul 6th, 2007 06:03 am |
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Are you using the TWS modules? If so, it would be a good solution as the mechanical switches would still be able to control the lights if Comfort is down.
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palmlodge
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Posted: Friday Jul 6th, 2007 07:20 am |
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From my experience, this is a def yes.
Just because they are an "approved" installer, this does not guarantee quality. The installer who originally put my system in made a complete hash of it and wanted to give up and walk away.
slychiu wrote:
Is it possible that some of these poorly installed systems were installed by Installers who were not so well trained or professional?
Perhaps it should be a requirement for those who install themselves to attend a traning course on Comfort, in which they pay for the course and the kit together. Then that would ensure that they have the basic knowledge and skills required
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slychiu
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Posted: Friday Jul 6th, 2007 07:43 am |
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It is always a good idea to have a fallback for controlling your lighting should any electronic system fail. It is fine to use the SCS to trigger the lights turning on and off but I recommend that Comfort (or any electronic system be relied on for all your lights). Even for CBus and EIB systems, the failure of the power supply would render the lighting all to turn off (or on)
What Adrian suggested with the TWS, works by using a two way mechanical switch working with a relay as another switch to allow the mechanical switch to independently control the lighting regardless of Comfort; ie the light and be controlled by Comfort or by the mech switch, and would work even if Comfort were switched off
However you must make sure such installations conform to the required electrical regulations. the TWS is approved for EN60950 safety regulations
Attachment: twsconnection small.jpg (Downloaded 47 times)
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dcrera
Comfort Installers
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Posted: Friday Jul 6th, 2007 09:34 am |
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Hi,
I replaced my mechanical switches with SCS, would this mean that I have to have two banks of switches to safe guard myself in a Comfort blackout ?
Or can the SCS be used in two way switching.
Thanks
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adlim
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Posted: Friday Jul 6th, 2007 10:54 am |
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dcrera wrote: Hi,
I replaced my mechanical switches with SCS, would this mean that I have to have two banks of switches to safe guard myself in a Comfort blackout ?
Or can the SCS be used in two way switching.
Thanks
The SCSes cannot be used as a backup. They are not high voltage switches. I certainly hope you haven't tried using them as such! 
Yes, you could probably use them to achieve a similar "two-way switching" effect by playing with the SCS/RIO responses to toggle the TWS relays state. However, note that it will also fail if Comfort isn't working. What you could also purchase similar looking high voltage two-way switches as the SCS to complement each other. 
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dcrera
Comfort Installers
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Posted: Friday Jul 6th, 2007 11:03 am |
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Thanks,
I am going to install set of emergency mechanical switches in a cupboard or some place.
This would have it's own 12 v supply that will power up selected relays in an emergency.
Thanks again
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